The 2025 date and "advanced process node" both line up with the recent order for ASML's high-NA EUV machines (TWINSCAN EXE:5200) for delivery in 2025 intended for 18A.
It is definitely a choice. The benefit of sticking to the west coast is no snow or other weather related issues that may cause delays. Texas cut off power to Samsung factories when their natural gas lines froze and burst for a few weeks causing Samsung to resort to using crappier controllers on their SSDs. Ohio is tied to multiple states in the Eastern grid so this is less of a risk but Ohio has WAY more intense winters than in Texas. Hope for the best.
There are main fabs already in Colorado(Avago), Utah(IMFT→ MIcron→ TI now) and New Mexico(Intel), granted Midwest winters and freezing rain suck... No issue for large facilities. Might be hard for workforce to leave and arrive during white out conditions, but most of this equipment is automated, productivity will be impacted but not in a measurable impact like the fab fires Hynix had in China. Ohio is perfect due to the plentiful water supply and most importantly friendly business environment.
They can, but that 5% is still a titanic amount, the the point that TSMC had to limit operations in taiwan despite using a lower percentage of water then they were allocated.
Plan to go Mumbai for some business trip. You are detached from everyone else and searching for some sensual companion who can make your meeting as well as night pleasurable and erotic. https://www.ranitajain.com/
I know the area where they're building the fab. The winters aren't that bad, and the grid and power generation is prepared for cold winters unlike cheap ass Texas.
Texas isn't cheap, they are stupid. They aren't connected to either the western or eastern US grids. This is because they don't want anyone outside the state telling them what to do. This cost them a lot of money and lives.
Ah yes, because other states that are connected to the grid NEVER has long power outages. California, especially, is one of the most stable states in the union and severe weather has NEVER caused a problem there.
California's power problems are due to their infrastructure getting bought up in leveraged buyouts by private equity firms which subsequently jacked up rates and refused to make necessary investments in the infrastructure.
Name me another state where over two hundred deaths were directly attributable to inadequate power generation. Your whataboutcaliforniaism is simply nowhere the scale of the incompetence and failure of Texas.
The only power problems California is having is with aging infrastructure. Connecting to a regional grid doesn't solve that for you. But we haven't had above average power outage issues since the fabricated issues during the Enron scandal.
Wind Turbines work fine in the North, you just need to spec them right.
The didn't inadvertently sabotage their infrastructure. They had a similar event about a decade ago and didn't upgrade their facilities. They just don't care, or at least the people who stand to make money don't care.
Anyone still operating during this period made a ton of money. They charged 1 normal year of billing per day, for about 10 days. Even now what should be critical natural gas suppliers can take themselves off the critical list by paying $150 .....
..and the warnings have been there for much longer than a decade. If the fossil fuel industry and it's supporters spent as much on infrastructure improvements in Texas as it does on anti-renewable FUD then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The playbook, for some time now, has been to blame renewables for the shortcomings of fossil fuels, and as this thread points out, it still works on many.
The lie that windmills caused Texas' power crisis of last winter has been quite thoroughly debunked. Sure, they didn't help, but the grid still would've collapsed even without the windmills freezing up.
They were both cheap and stupid - what happened last winter has happened before. It was just deemed not worth it to winterize the infrastructure. Now, semiconductor manufacturers are looking to other states because up time is too important to chance.
This is why most companies are looking at states like Ohio and New York. The power is reliable, there is plenty of water, and there are no fires/hurricanes/major natural disasters.
eia.gov ohio map shows two large powerplants to the east. 780-840MW Conesville plant (conventional steam COAL), with mines to the southeast. 540-678MW Dresden plant (Natural GAS) also a battery facility 4 MW Sunbury facility and even a solar array nearby 1.9MW Denison solar array
The last of Conesville was decommissioned due to no longer being economically viable in 2019 and 2020, and was demolished in December. It's gone for good.
Columbus voters approved a measure to transition to 100% renewable energy by default in 2020, and construction on those plants should be underway before long if it isn't already. Which means there should be plenty of excess capacity in the are for Intel as demand for the existing non-renewable plants decreases.
> The benefit of sticking to the west coast is no snow or > other weather related issues that may cause delays.
Until the heat dome of 2021, I'd have believed that about pacific northwest. Not any more. Weather is a potential issue *everywhere*. Heat waves, blizzards, hurricanes, tornados, flooding (like the "bomb cyclone" they had in Iowa)... you can't run or hide from it, any more.
I live about 20 miles from the site. Infrastructure keeps working in the winter in Ohio. We learned from our outage events in the mid-late 2000s, invested in the grid, and it's quite stable now. We just had a big freezing rain storm, and the power stayed on. In 2005, it might not have, but now it does.
Texas just hoped it would never get cold because they're Texas and got burned when it did. We know it's going to get cold up here so we prepare for it. The last time it was 20 below zero Fahrenheit? The lights stayed on then, too, and so did the natural gas. You build the infrastructure to handle it because people would die if you didn't. Unless you're Texas, then you just pray that it never gets cold.
Ohio is also pretty great in terms of other weather factors. Essentially zero risk of flooding unless you build right by one of the main rivers. No wildfires. No hurricanes. No earthquakes. Plentiful water. Southwest Ohio has a few tornadoes, but Columbus is outside of Tornado Alley, and Intel's on the side that's farther yet from Tornado Alley.
One large local company was looking for a site to build a new datacenter a decade or so ago, and initially wanted to build it somewhere other than Columbus to have geographic diversity. But what they found in the end was that the risk factors were so low, that there wasn't much point in building a long ways away. So they built their next data center in New Albany, exactly where Intel is building.
> Essentially zero risk of flooding unless you build right by one of the main rivers.
Nowhere is completely safe from flooding. A couple years ago, some midwestern states were hit by a bomb cyclone that dumped a ton of rain on frozen ground that couldn't absorb it. The result was devastating.
> Columbus is outside of Tornado Alley
Lately, the hotspot for tornadoes seems to be shifting eastward. You see this especially in the south.
I'm not really disagreeing with you that Columbus is a good site. I'm just saying nowhere is 100% safe.
manufacturing has been leaving the US for decades. to have have this investment occur in Ohio and overseas or Arizona, California or NewYork's Tech Valley is a big deal.
Perhaps the car/truck/robot supplychain in the michigan/ontario to tennesee 'rustbelt' is the primary intended customer. Even though they haven't historically used bleeding edge fabs.
Car manufacturing throughout much of the rustbelt is connected both by i-75 and the railroads, both of which Columbus has easy access to. The move to EVs is going to push the demand for chips sky high.
There's also talk of "secure chips" for the US government, and the government has at least one defense contractor making equipment for them in Lima.
Unfortunately, taxpayers are funding Intel's efforts to monopolize the chip industry even more as the Biden admin spends other people's money like a drunk. It would seem that GloFo in Malta NY should have gotten federal funding to expand their production as AMD is certainly hamstrung in it's ability to expand it's sales with leading chip designs due to TMSC's capacity limitations.
There was a Go Flo AMD JV initiative on the table into a couple years before Zen but AMD VCs said no. The offer was very similar to the Ti and IBM offers to Cyrix who also said no. mb
Intel’s fabs are not exclusive. Before IDM 2.0, no company took the opportunity to use Intel’s fabs because there wasn’t any benefit of using Intel over Global Foundries, Samsung, or TSMC. Since Intel’s new fabs are using a business model similar to other fab companies, it makes sense for the government to invest in Intel to increase domestic production.
Unfortunately GF and it’s foreign backers gave up on leading edge fab process. Intel hasn’t preformed well but they were at least still in the game. GF would have needed Intel or foreign IP to accomplish what the government wanted. Well, and they didn’t pay off enough politicians.
No, but the long-term trend of the budget deficit should be bent downward to grow slower than inflation. That's not just about spending. It's also about revenue (i.e. taxation).
Intel could do well in the foundry business but I don't see that as fundamental to Intel's microprocessor business -- complementary yes, fundamental no.
And, how are Intel's mainstream and specialised microprocessor businesses faring? Not so well, if IC Insights data is right. In 2021, a year in which growth rates for semiconductor companies (in the USA and elsewhere) were typically high -- above 20% for the sector as a whole -- Intel experienced a slight decline in revenues.
Really hared to make the "their foundries were not fundamental" when said foundries were critical to their processors cutting edge performance for the better part of 30 years, and allowed them to literally print money providing for the server and consumer markets. Even when on the uncompetitive 14nm+++ node they couldnt keep up with orders, and TSMC is utterly floored unable to keep up with demand resulting in a planetwide "chip shortage"
And you're going to argue that intel foundries are not fundamental to their success? Really?
Intel's foundry operations are complimentary, but not fundamental, to its microprocessor business. I think that is a proposition supported by Intel's behaviour. If its foundry operations were truly fundamental to its microprocessor business then presumably shopping around for other foundries to fabricate Intel processors would be a no-no, but that is exactly what Intel has recently done signing contracts with TSMC for a significant number of 3nm parts.
Perhaps, you are missing the point. Launching into a large commercial foundry business may work out well for Intel but it won't likely lift the performance of its microprocessor business. At the moment the weight of evidence suggests that Intel is finding it harder and harder to demonstrate any significant technological advantages for its own processors over rival products from AMD, Apple or a number of on the rise manufacturers building (infrastructure or consumer) SoCs based on licensed ARM tech. Intel's loss of leadership in microarchitecture is not a problem that will be resolved by raising the profile of its foundry business.
The point being missed is that TSMC has a tremendous amount of money they can invest in R&D because they make so many chips. With each node shrink, the cost continues to rise substantially to the point that Intel being the only "customer" of their own fab is not enough to support future R&D efforts.
The semi-conductor industry shifts around. Intel no longer being the current leader in perf/watt does not signify some permanent shift from which they'll never recover. I see them already signing on Amazon and Qualcomm as customers of their GAA process, expecting to beat TSMC to market with this design. I see them being the first fab to acquire High-NA EUV machines from ASML. I see TSMC having delays with their N3 process. I see Intel building a massive, expensive fab in Ohio. The only conclusion that comes to my mind is that there will be a highly competitive fab industry by 2025.
x86 will continue to be around for a long time - and bringing up ARM doesn't seem to be the "got ya" you think it is. x86 doesn't have to break into the smart phone market if one of the largest ARM designers (Qualcomm) chooses to manufacture at Intel Foundries.
Not having its own foundry facilities didn't stop AMD experiencing year on year annual growth in revenues of 65% in 2021 or similar rapid growth by MediaTek (60%), Nvidia (57%) or Qualcomm (51%) in the same period. Having its own foundry facilities didn't stop Intel suffering a decline in revenues of 1% during a year in which the semiconductor sector as a whole grew by 23%.
Now, obviously, in-house foundry operations aren't fundamental to fast growing chip manufacturers like AMD, MediaTek, Nvidia or Qualcomm because, as a matter of fact, fabless chip manufacturers like those just mentioned are very successfully making their way in the world entirely free of such operations. It is easy to insist that Intel's foundry operations are somehow essential or fundamental to Intel as a microprocessor manufacturer but the evidence of the great success of fast growing fabless semiconductor designers/manufacturers/vendors belies that lazy line of thinking. Intel, like other chip manufacturers before it could easily spin off its foundry operations without Intel's chip business losing a beat. Given the scale of Intel's chip business, though, it has reason enough to retain its foundry operations. The integrated device manufacturing model can support product optimization, improve economics, and ensure supply resilience. But, the pure play foundry services model also has its attractions. TSMC, as you point out, has a tremendous amount of money that it can invest in R&D and given the nature of TSMC's business it constantly intensifies investments to improve the state of the art of silicon fabrication and to offer to its foundry partners (at a price) new technological options for 3D silicon stacking and advanced packaging. That, of course, is pretty much what fabless chip manufacturers want from a contract manufacturer.
The way the semiconductor industry has evolved has meant that chip design and chip fabrication are being pursued more and more as discrete activities. Would AMD, MediaTek, Nvidia or Qualcomm benefit from some integrated device manufacturing capability that they currently lack? Not obviously. Those companies are fast growing chip designers/suppliers whereas Intel with its IDM capability is stagnant.
I am not sure what to make of Pat Gelsinger's promotion of IDM 2.0 (it just sounds like cheerleading to me) and it isn't apparent to me why this would be the right fit for fabless semiconductor manufacturers. I suspect that Intel is just generating a noisy narrative that serves it purposes in the current situation. But, perhaps there is a simpler account for Intel's recent manoeuvring. It is evident that global foundry capacity needs to grow a lot and Intel arguably just wants to get a piece of that pie or, perhaps, needs a piece of that pie given the moribund condition of its chip business. Also, given the current nervousness about national/local manufacturing and the favourable mood in government circles (in the US and elsewhere) towards extending aid to corporations in order to bolster key national industries, Intel may be just opportunistically raising its hand in the hope to become a recipient of a hefty share of that governmental largesse.
Intel SF10 currently has a 25 cents on the dollar cost advantage over AMD and Nvidia when applying the foundry mark up, otherwise Intel and TSMC production costs are similar. Intel strategy is to trail on the downward sloping cost curve of every last node while AMD and Nvidia get hit with the factor cost increase on every next node; note the classic Intel watcher, learner, fast follower. AMD has to maintain at least 1.5 nodes ahead of Intel on cost add of foundry mark up or AMD losses performance for area advantage that has already occurred for V5x 7 nm v AL SF10/7. Subsequently Rembrandt 6 and Genoa 5 has been shipping since q3 2021. Sapphire Rapids is also shipping. Genoa and SR in risk volumes to hyperscale / cloud (HPC) because no one waits at the leading edge. mb
you're comparing growth of companies like AMD who had almost no market 5 years ago, to the growth of intel who has been twiddling their thumbs with greater than 90% x86 market ownership until recently. AMD benefits both from the market's growth and intel's loss of performance dominance, whereas intel is limited by its ability to supply chips and has only recently put in TSMC orders for chips that will go into their CPUs.
If anything, the fact that AMD has a clearly dominant design for the past 2~3 years yet is still severely supply constrained and gradually regaining marketshare shows you just how much of a gap there is in volume between the two companies. Hardly comparable at all.
whatthe123, yes AMD is supply constrained. AMD broke 100 M units this year for the first time ever approximately 111,954,324 units I'll be able to confirm that when q4 10Q comes out. All up AMD has produced 326,491,986 Zen based components since Summit introduction in February 2017. Intel capacity before fab initiatives is 400 M units annual + 100 M outsourced to foundries. I can also confirm AMD has to keep 1.5 nodes ahead to maintain its area advantage on large cache applications performance strategy and 1) process is saturating and 2) nodes will stack as in like a train car crash and 3) Intel has placed that TSMC 3 nm road block. mb, former Cyrix, NexGen, AMD, ARM, IDT Centaur
> AMD has to keep 1.5 nodes ahead to maintain its area advantage > on large cache applications performance strategy
Did it occur to you that as AMD grows, it has more resources to invest in design & other new tech? So, maybe that lead on design that Intel seems to have is now dropping to 1 node, and maybe it'll drop to 0.5 nodes by the time Zen 5 hits.
mode_13th, lithography process and lithography process 'advantage' is stacking from the back like a freight train that just ran into a physical wall; everyone catches up when lithography reaches saturation at infinity dependent then on what is the next transistor and what is the next bit cell.
Specific to the jump gate of advanced packaging and interconnect and in memory compute and CXL etc., I entirely agree that system in package presents new performance subsystem and overall system performance opportunities.
Zen 5? AMD is currently scrambling to get Zen 4 to fit into the Intel + Microsoft (tied) sandbox on a reconfigured x86 'platform standard' that is Win 11 thread directed application optimizations. Certainly, and currently V5x on Win 10 is 'the more x86 standard platform' than Alder on Windows 11?
Q "Did it occur to you that as AMD grows, it has more resources to invest in design & other new tech?"
A; Think about what happens, what product(s) functionality you get, when you drop an FPGA (combine) on top of a GPU array; matrix and spatial. Among the most basic is area microcontrollers for tensor like linear algebra and/or like what RT does today with MCUs managing their areas of a bit map or what Volta tensor cores can do to optimize server data processing operations I'd need to read up on the various application uses. At the top of the stack when you combine and FPGA with a GPU you get a switch; now think Broadcom.
Yes, it really is quite expansive, I agree entirely. mb
Intel had no growth in revenues in a year that the semiconductor sector as a whole grew by 23% globally. That is an awful result whatever way you cut it. Also, fast risers do give a good picture of what is happening in the sector - they take a significant percentage of growing revenues in semiconductors.
Yes, I did make comparisons, as you say, but I have been very clear in stating that the intent of my comments was to point out how moribund Intel processor design has become. The comparisons were elementary and mostly served an argumentative intent -- if foundries play this magical role in governing the quality of microprocessors how is it that AMD has become dominant in design (and has reaped rewards in terms of growth)? I was attempting to show to Intel fans with an Intel can do no wrong attitude that their outlook was self-contradictory. It hasn't been plain sailing at all over at Intel. They have needed to rid themselves of dead wood and a bunch of new techical hires were needed to start putting Intel on a steady course and ultimately a new management team had to be imported to start extricating the company from the mess created by the earlier thumb twiddlers. Also, I am not setting out rules for the organisation of semiconductor companies, I am calling out a company by the name of Intel that has been underperforming for years due to technical lethargy and a preoccupation with dubious market practices and inattention to user needs and that as a consequence of those failures has opened the way for an onslaught by its chip rivals on markets that are now up for grabs. Is anyone going to seriously dispute this sorry story? So, in my account Intel created the problem and is the problem although it has belatedly acted to start fixing the problem.
Where do the fabs stand in all of this? They are nothing more than a side issue in the story I set out -- Intel's fabs (and pure play fabs, too) are obviously a big deal but the low ebb of Intel as a chip supplier has much more to do with troubles it has had in designing chips that meet the needs of end users and very little to do with the performance of Intel's fabs per se. Intel lost dominance in chip design because poor management failed to properly support chip design and engineering -- the core of what Intel is. Now, just as Intel's foundries didn't figure in the mess Intel got itself into with weakening demand for the chips it was producing nor will its foundries save Intel as a chip design and engineering business from further troubles if it fails in its objective to build the right kind of chip design teams that can manage to outdo its rivals.
Indeed, AMD is supply constrained -- it would be doing even better if it weren't, but that tells us almost nothing about when an why a chip supplier might think of getting into the chip fabrication game. AMD has been through these things before and I leave to them how they want to proceed.
I have one question on these proposed fabs. In view of the heavy public commitments that will underwrite these facilities why is it Intel rather than any number of other semiconductor companies that is getting the attention of State governments and the US Federal government? Is Intel a particularly deserving beneficiary of their support? Or to put the point more forcefully, does putting the semiconductor sector in the USA on a sounder footing necessarily involve dusting off a player with deeply entrenched self-interests like Intel (with the support of public funds) to take the lead in that effort?
Intel gets no federal funding until Intel Inside price fix theft associated General Services Administration processor in box and processor in computer procurement overcharge theft is returned to the federal government. Thereafter at the public level, State Citizens. See what Ohio is up to, States can offer whatever investment incentives they want and then as the Ohio State AG collects for State Citizens on the consumer market Intel Inside price fix theft the State investment in Intel subsidies becomes a push. mb
Intel bread and butter was Fabs and x86 ISA. Intel was leading in the technology on all fronts, be it FinFet, 22nm first, 14nm and high K. They ruined themselves, who ? Shareholders.
Intel sabotaged AMD by that Intel Israel MOAP program which forced Dell, Lenovo, Supermicro, HP server OEMs to stop AMD and killed their own competition and got away, which caused AMD to spin off all their fabs which had IBM technology on top. Then they kept on re-iterating the Core series design from SKL to KBL era with same quad core. Meanwhile the shareholder pigs left Intel to rot and moved their base of love to Apple. Then Apple poured billions into TSMC and Chinese / Taiwanese manufacturing. Which caused TMSC exponential growth.
Also Intel wasted all money on 5G tech, Mobile Eye, and McAfee etc Mergers because they did not have competition. Ultimately the company stagnated, but due to the x86 world they stayed afloat and profits because greed. With Apple's shareholder influence they got 5G sold to Apple for just $1bn. Horrible. Scum Apple gotaway for cheap while they wanted to nuke Qcomm out by Broadcom.
Anyways coming back to Intel, they had even SSD NAND also top rank, Intel SLC and MLC was top notch at that time Samsung barely even started with 840 series. Now look where Intel NAND is completely sold off to SKHynix and even the best technology R&D Optane is also Enterprise only.
Intel also had their CPUs coupled with Nodes, this is why SKL could never be even fabbed on 10nm if they wanted, the only backport they did was RKL and it was a huge disaster which killed LGA1200 prematurely, on purpose however because 10nm TigerLake BGA trash get more sales and margins than a DIY LGA socket. Plus it helps ADL charts.
Ultimately Intel is Lithography and x86 both do not exist separate. They failed on 10nm by 4 years which caused more money to TSMC and now Intel is going to TSMC for their diversified plan of chiplets and Xe GPUs. Utter shame how this company has fallen.
This helps Intel AND x86 to lead the world computing. Mobile OSes and ARM garbage are use and throw junk with very little backcompat and re-usability. PLUS this also helps Intel to keep some jobs in US rather than depending entirely on that damn Asian subcontinent be it IT oursourcing, Immigration and R&D of leading Semi industry. Plus Chinese insane rip off. Look how Apple helped them to flood the market with cheap trash clones of Apple devices choking out all the others in the market.
>>This helps Intel AND x86 to lead the world computing.<<
In a year in which semiconductor industries experienced 23% growth in revenues for the sector as a whole Intel declined 1%. That is a very poor result.
Mobile devices ship in far higher volumes than x86 parts PLUS Intel's node problem let AMD eat Intel's marketshare in Datacenter and DIY on top of that Intel Capex on these IDM made their growth stunted.
What you want to say is one single argument - Kill the Fabs as they do not do anything. You already know how much volume Intel fabs have vs TSMC. Taiwanese corporation asked a huge chunk of money to allocate for Intel 3nm requirement. And we do not even know if it's x86 processors or the Xe GPU.
If Intel sheds all fabs who is going to buy them ? Andy Grove mentioned years ago that there will be only one Foundry left due to the nature of the Lithography getting expensive as time passes by, now we have only 3 left. In which there's only one Pure Play TSMC.
Plus Samsung makes DRAM, ICs, ARM and a TON more on top of their Fab plants in SK. Intel doesn't they even sold off the entire NAND and Optane Fab Utah one as well. Ofc Samsung will have a ton of growth. Very poor comparision of Apples vs Oranges only one pretext that Fabless grew Intel didn't ignoring entire market dynamics, companies that produce mobile junk vs DIY / Datacenter.
So, I have an agenda according to you. Well, I am not pushing the cart that you assert I am. I mention successful fabless companies because their success flies in the face of the naive outlook of someone like yourself who asserts and asserts Intel's way is best even as that behemoth wallows. There is nothing that fab ownership can do to save an underperforming silicon design and engineering operation from itself. What I contend is that Intel is an underperforming silicon design and engineering operation.
Intel may benefit greatly from this renewed emphasis on foundry services. But, Intel's rivals in the chip game won't be worried about that because it is Intel's failure to get silicon design and engineering right (after poor management over many years that has had a devastating effect on Intel as a technology company) that has given them the opportunity to score major wins as Intel wallows.
Looking forward, beyond Raptor Lake, say, maybe the intensified engineering efforts that have followed the change of management at Intel will start to pay dividends. We shall see.
If Intel shed its fabs Intel would go bankrupt on their existing cost structure despite the fact Intel has been re-engineering its cost structure (replacing) on diversification attempts and tries for the last 20 years. Intel may finally be getting it's cost structure optimized on diversification and reconfiguring from producing for supply to financially monopolize channels to producing for demand that cuts a lot of nonsense costs from the bottom line. mb
Speculation, but this probably has less to do with water supply, electricity, or winter conditions. It’s politicians trying to keep votes for a bunch of rust belt union workers who are about to lose in the EV transition.
Considering how long all this takes, most already would have lost before plans come to conclusion. Plus, electronics fabrication is different than most rust belt industry, taking a good while to retrain.
That's not really how politics works. The big political donors for in-state offices are mostly in the business community. Construction firms, real estate holders, and other vested interests were likely pushing for this, and will reward the politicians who got it done with more political donations.
Unions are also probably a bit more far-sighted than their individual members. If Ohio isn't a "right-to-work" state, then unions also could've helped push this through.
Uh, as someone who lives in the rust belt, what a tone deaf comment. GM and Ford have significant rollouts planned with EVs over the next decade. I know of many new hires from my alma mater who were hired just a couple years ago and who were picked specifically for EV R&D work.
The traditional assembly line workers in the rust belt are in fact getting transitioned to EV assembly and that will be progressing over the next decade. I have close friends that I interact with often and they have a lot of good things in store, so again you are totally ignorant and underinformed.
Ha, as someone who grew up in Ohio, I'm always amazed how people from Ohio can drive around all the abandoned factories in the state and still think the auto manufacturers will save them. You think every person who's shoving sheet metal into stamping machines is going to go to Ohio State and design batteries and electric motors. EV will drive a complete re-tooling of the factories which will be mostly automated. Plus it will provide a window for new companies to take market share from the Big 3. You assume they all will survive. A lot of those jobs are going to robots. If not, there will be continual pressure to relocate jobs to southern states or Mexico. In short, acceleration of what's happening for decades. Time to take your head out of the sand.
Did you just assume that the EVs would appear from thin air, or all be made in california or something dumb like that?
Those EVs are going to be made in the same factories making gas cars now, and they'll need chips. And now intel is making a huge plant tapped right into the transportation network that feeds those factories.
Wow now all of a sudden Anand readers are manufacturing experts. As of now, NONE of the below comments have a clue, and are largely making things up. The entire country has a plentiful "water supply". You think these fabs use tap water? Water is a closed system in these.
Ohio got the fabs because they gave Intel better tax breaks. Did you people even listen or watch the press release yesterday? The Gov mentioned like 10 times that they had to pass legislation to allow them to give tax breaks to win the deal.
Not saying that's bad -- competition amongst the states is necessary. Intel will not even consider a bid from Texas because of their politics, not while Pat is CEO.
"Intel will not even consider a bid from Texas because of their politics, not while Pat is CEO."
Nor, probably, from Arizona, where the alt-right lunatics in their desert doublewides have taken over the state legislature. The more intelligent and educated districts and county have been gerrymandered into impotence. Hence the idiocies of the past year, like the clown show "audit".
More insanity to come when they pass Az GOP House Bill 2720 making it trivial for themselves to give all Az electors to their candidate. No reason needed; no oversight, consultation, or recourse. No need to even be in session - a 5-min Zoom call will simply turn the state red. That bill is promoted for "election integrity".
Why build in a "state" headed for such political catastrophes?
I suppose it'd be better if we just handed out mail in ballots with no checks in place like we did in 2020 right? Because there was no complaining from democrats when THAT happened. Those poor "educated" districts getting railroaded by idiots, because no republican ever lives outside of a trailer park and despite being educated you cant outsmart a field mouse.
Leftist lunatics and their blinding hypocracy, honestly. Just stick to ruining california instead of trying to screw the rest of the country thanks. If you want to whine about "audits" maybe address you spent 4 YEARS screaming about "MUH RUSSIA" and auditing the 2016 election only to come up utterly empty handed.
> I suppose it'd be better if we just handed out mail in ballots > with no checks in place like we did in 2020
Doesn't know how voting-by-mail *actually* works. The envelopes have serial numbers, so they can't be forged. This also tells them who is voting, so you can't vote both by mail and in-person.
> spent 4 YEARS screaming about "MUH RUSSIA" ... only to come up utterly empty handed.
Mueller found numerous counts of obstruction of justice. Normally, people only obstruct an investigation to hide their guilt.
Nobody of any significance questioned the 2016 *count* nor demanded endless "forensic" audits of every county in the nation. Russian meddling in the *campaign* was proven. Two different things. And as noted, mail-in ballots have many checks in place (you are totally uninformed) and are scrupulously handled; and btw 90% of Arizonans have been using them for ~40 years. Not a problem until Trump lost.
But that and your other whatabouts aren't the point, which is that Az is in the hands of a cabal of state legislators cynically pandering to 2020 election lies and to the alt-right agenda in general, including QAnon. They are 24/7 fostering hate against the Dems and the few remaining Republicans who dare to stand in their way. The rage levels on those forums are incredible. Any sensible corporation will think 50 times before investing billions here. Another price we Arizonans must pay for helping to vote Trump out.
What a joke of a comment which is the modern progressive nonsense. If that's the case you know what, the worst is ? Cultural Marxism ruining America, it killed off Oregon, California to a halt. These type should go to Ars Technica not AT and lay off the Catastrophic Crack nonsense.
Putting every single fab in AZ or TX is not good, diversifying the factories and manuf plants is what America needs choking a single state out of this whole BS muh Silicon Valley crap ruined that state permanently. So Intel chose this due to whatever tax benefits they got from OH.
That's the way, just spew this rubbish incessantly without ever constraining your perverse opinions with supporting evidence -- California remains the biggest contributor to US GDP.
Ohio's GOP is pretty tame by national standards. Our previous governor, John Kasich, ran against Trump in the 2016 primaries, beat him in Ohio, and loathed Trump so much that he skipped the 2016 convention, despite it being in his own state while he was acting governor. In part due to his Never Trump stance, a lot of Ohio Republicans, especially in purple and blue counties, are much more moderate than the national party.
Even now, Ohio's most prominent statewide-elected Republicans - Governor DeWine and Senator Portman - are pretty moderate, or at least traditional (pre-Trump) conservative. Portman was key in passing the infrastructure bill, actively promoting it alongside Biden. DeWine sided with Democrats and vetoed legislation from his own party on coronavirus measures in 2020. They're both known for valuing competence over ideology.
They're also both aware that Ohioans will elect Democrats if they perceive them to be more competent. Ohio's other Senator, Sherrod Brown, is a Democrat and won re-election in 2018, and Democrats flipped a seat on Ohio's Supreme Court in 2020, cutting the GOP advantage to 4-3. A few weeks ago, the Supreme Court ruled against its own majority party on redistricting maps. It's not all about ideology here. You have to be competent, too.
Sure, at the more local level we occasionally get clowns like Jim Jordan. But he's elected from a heavily red constituency. State-wide, there's nothing comparison to having Greg Abbott as governor.
Hopefully, Intel will send in a huge army of construction crews and equipment so they can get this new Ohio Fab Complex up and running at warp speed. Maybe someone on Youtube can do drone videos of the construction of it like they do for Tesla's Gigafactory in Austin, TX.
I can't wait to get my hands on a mind boggling 18A Intel chip for my PC. I suspect Apple, Qualcomm and all the other chip designers will give Intel a big chunk of their business if they can get this Ohio fab up and running quickly and they have excellent, high quality yields and so forth. It will surely make the Columbus, Ohio area one of the major high technology hubs in the whole world.
Local construction companies are pushing some juicy contracts to attract workers. That industry is in an insane boom between this and the housing buildup.
Eh, between TSMC's supply constraints and the industry-wide shift towards ARM, I don't really see that happening.
Anyway, let's say AMD + ARM manage to put Xeon on a steady downward trajectory. Intel's new foundry business can always pivot to making ARM-based CPUs. Or RISC-V, or whatever.
And don't forget, some of them could even be designed by Intel! Intel isn't going to stay x86 forever. Just like how they replaced Xeon Phi with non-x86 HPC processors, they will shift their server CPU offerings away from x86, if the market demands it.
It is honestly so depressing to see architectural drawings for a high-tech, massive budget facility like this planned for near-future construction and have it include _zero_ renewable energy generation. Open-plan car parks are not only an ecological disaster and a massive waste of land, but if strictly necessary the very least they could do would be to roof them over with solar panels. The same goes for the fab buildings - there is zero reason for those roofs not to be covered in solar panels. All that open area in flat terrain should also be excellent for wind turbines (obviously built so as not to cause vibrations that might affect production). Though tbh given the budget of something like this, splurging on a multi-story parking garage (still covered with solar panels, including side walls) and leaving the unused land as meadows (promoting biodiversity in what is likely mostly monocultural quasi-desert) would be _by far_ the preferred solution, and a minor added cost overall.
I think the impact of the solar panels would be negligible compared to the plant's energy demands, but it wouldn't hurt. The point about maintaining some wild land or parks around the complex is a good idea.
You're missing the point a bit: I'm not asking for net zero energy, I'm asking them to make a damn effort. Net zero energy for any major industrial installation from renewable in its own area is essentially impossible. That doesn't alleviate them from the responsibility of doing what they can. Ideally, the permits to build this would come with a requirement to fund the building of significant renewable energy sources in the same area. But barring that, anyone occupying a significant plot of land like this for industrial purposes still has a responsibility to care for it and its surroundings both in terms of energy generation, pollution, biodiversity, noise and light pollution, and many other factors.
There is no Chip Act funding for Intel in relation the potential of a federal theft reverse false claim.
"Meanwhile the CHIPS for America Act and its 53 billion in incentives will also be a. Intel for its part isn’t playing coy about its interest in the CHIPS money, explicitly stating that “The scope and pace of Intel’s expansion in Ohio, however, will depend heavily on funding from the CHIPS Act”.
I thought CEO Gelsinger ordered the Intel PR Department mum on this because Intel is rich and does not need Chip Act funds and INTC board does not want the U.S. federal government snooping around in Intel's business?
There are no federal Chip Act funds available to Intel until Intel Inside price fix recovery sought by the federal government and 27 States AG including Ohio is paid. The U.S. government does not hand out money to corporations who thieved from U.S. government and have not paid back the theft Congress would immediately file suit.
States and Fed have an offer on the table; $19,805,500,000 worldwide consumer, $350,000,000 United States federal for Title 48 processor in box and processor in computer chassis Intel Inside 'price fix overcharges plus $500,000,000 in administrative reimbursement cost offset = $19,805,500,000. States however are free to negotiate their own incentives with Intel we reside in a federal republic of 50 States and 4 territories including certain of these entities holding commonwealth rights.
In the Intel Inside system of tied charge backs; a two-part system of regulating trigger for defining what is (how much is) the compensating 'kick back' match, $19.805 billion represents 46% of Intel Inside 'kick back' match for channel registered metering report to intel for payment on processor and processor in computer end buyer sales notice; discharge from the supply chain essentially. It's called a brand fee reward. EUCC in 37.990 calls it "avoidable cost charge", FTC in Docket 9341 says "raising price with no efficiency justification" and generally in United States domestic antitrust terminology is said a "nonsense" or 'extra economic' cost in price charge.
Intel Inside is not cooperative advertising, an Intel false certification and proof of the theft, but an inventory flow metering system commissioning end sales outlets with a brand fee reward on the end sale paid by end buyers on that Intel Inside cost buried into Intel processor price to the OEM.
Think about this for a moment on the grand scale. Intel 1st tier OEMS monopolize 100% of Intel production volume and 100% of Intel Inside attach that is $8.32 per processor over 25 years and when those OEMs sell off whatever amount of that 100% procurement volume they do not want on real time demand or down bin SKUs, they sell it to the secondary tier without the rebate. First tier OEMs keep the total amount of Intel Inside. Thereafter these artificially weighted pools of Intel Inside funds tie first tier OEMS to their own OEM and web direct sales, media web sales, affiliate and retail sales outlets. All sales outlets compete for the majority of Intel Inside pools, none leave Intel Inside on the table. Before Zen pull through this how AMD up until 2017, Cyrix and IDT Centaur and VIA way back when were restrained and limited. Intel always sells through first and all others sell through last because Intel Inside s never left on the table by sales channels.
Noteworthy Intel Inside was discontinued by Intel entering fiscal 2018 one among the BK clean up initiatives.
Including the OEM regulating contribution taken by Intel and cost to OEMs in their processor procurement price; recall it's a two-part value system, $18.9 billion = 22% of the entire Intel Inside consumer price fix robbery across 5.539,406,562 total processors thought low on total CPUs manufactured subject Intel production laundering thefts by employees engaged in associate inter nation channel cartels. Think Intel employees who get an Intel pay check but really work for and are kept employed in Intel by their bosses at OEMs and in sales channels including the media.
I can see why Intel and Ohio would make a good match although Ohio has no existing semiconductor manufacturing infrastructure there.
Ohio certainly could use the jobs I've been there and its a manufacturing region for auto, aircraft and aircraft maintenance, assembly, machinists and Ohioans have a manufacturing heritage. My mother’s father’s side were in the Ohio valley early in that frontier migrating to California as rail road workers in the 1880s.
I wish Intel and Ohio well in their endeavors but there is no federal Chip Act funds for intel until Intel pays back Intel Inside otherwise that act results in a reverse false claim and Congress would immediately file suit.
Mike Bruzzone FTC Docket 9341 auditor monitor and 9288 and 931 discovery aid since May 1998 Retained by Congress Contract agent of the United States Department of Justice' former Cyrix, ARM, NexGen, AMD employee, Samsung Alpha, intel, IDT Centaur consultant
Mixed feelings about this. From customer friendliness, morality and ethics perspectives, Intel is an absolute garbage company. It's far worse than most of companies, except perhaps Pfizer. This comment has nothing to do with current world narratives, the company existed before and was rotten to the core.
Anyway, on the other hand, I always want competition in the market, technological advancement to keep pace and jobs. I have family at ground zero where the fab will be built. Job opportunities?
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edzieba - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
The 2025 date and "advanced process node" both line up with the recent order for ASML's high-NA EUV machines (TWINSCAN EXE:5200) for delivery in 2025 intended for 18A.movax2 - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
Yeah, Intel always delivered in time.They delivered 10nm just after 14nm. And they also delivered "7" (nm?) in time https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/201...
HollyDOL - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
Length contraction & time dilatation finally proven (c) Intel :-)quiksilvr - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
It is definitely a choice. The benefit of sticking to the west coast is no snow or other weather related issues that may cause delays. Texas cut off power to Samsung factories when their natural gas lines froze and burst for a few weeks causing Samsung to resort to using crappier controllers on their SSDs. Ohio is tied to multiple states in the Eastern grid so this is less of a risk but Ohio has WAY more intense winters than in Texas. Hope for the best.cyrusfox - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
There are main fabs already in Colorado(Avago), Utah(IMFT→ MIcron→ TI now) and New Mexico(Intel), granted Midwest winters and freezing rain suck... No issue for large facilities. Might be hard for workforce to leave and arrive during white out conditions, but most of this equipment is automated, productivity will be impacted but not in a measurable impact like the fab fires Hynix had in China. Ohio is perfect due to the plentiful water supply and most importantly friendly business environment.DanNeely - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
Semi-conductor plants are thirsty though. Ohio has much less strained water supplies than Arizona, or since you've mentioned Samsung much of Texas.drothgery - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
They use a lot of water, but they can recycle something like 95% of it.Hifihedgehog - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
So that means that it eventually dries up. The 8th wonder of the world in reverse gear means eventually you approach zero.TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
They can, but that 5% is still a titanic amount, the the point that TSMC had to limit operations in taiwan despite using a lower percentage of water then they were allocated.ranitajainim - Saturday, June 25, 2022 - link
Plan to go Mumbai for some business trip. You are detached from everyone else and searching for some sensual companion who can make your meeting as well as night pleasurable and erotic.https://www.ranitajain.com/
DigitalFreak - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
I know the area where they're building the fab. The winters aren't that bad, and the grid and power generation is prepared for cold winters unlike cheap ass Texas.danjw - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Texas isn't cheap, they are stupid. They aren't connected to either the western or eastern US grids. This is because they don't want anyone outside the state telling them what to do. This cost them a lot of money and lives.TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Ah yes, because other states that are connected to the grid NEVER has long power outages. California, especially, is one of the most stable states in the union and severe weather has NEVER caused a problem there.mode_13h - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
California's power problems are due to their infrastructure getting bought up in leveraged buyouts by private equity firms which subsequently jacked up rates and refused to make necessary investments in the infrastructure.underspec - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
Name me another state where over two hundred deaths were directly attributable to inadequate power generation. Your whataboutcaliforniaism is simply nowhere the scale of the incompetence and failure of Texas.sorten - Tuesday, January 25, 2022 - link
The only power problems California is having is with aging infrastructure. Connecting to a regional grid doesn't solve that for you. But we haven't had above average power outage issues since the fabricated issues during the Enron scandal.JasonMZW20 - Monday, February 28, 2022 - link
The irony: Enron was based in Texas.charlesg - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
The problem isn't being independent. The problem is falling for the 'green' lie and inadvertently sabotaging their infrastructure.RBFL - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
Wind Turbines work fine in the North, you just need to spec them right.The didn't inadvertently sabotage their infrastructure. They had a similar event about a decade ago and didn't upgrade their facilities. They just don't care, or at least the people who stand to make money don't care.
Anyone still operating during this period made a ton of money. They charged 1 normal year of billing per day, for about 10 days. Even now what should be critical natural gas suppliers can take themselves off the critical list by paying $150 .....
underspec - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
..and the warnings have been there for much longer than a decade. If the fossil fuel industry and it's supporters spent as much on infrastructure improvements in Texas as it does on anti-renewable FUD then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The playbook, for some time now, has been to blame renewables for the shortcomings of fossil fuels, and as this thread points out, it still works on many.mode_13h - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
The lie that windmills caused Texas' power crisis of last winter has been quite thoroughly debunked. Sure, they didn't help, but the grid still would've collapsed even without the windmills freezing up.vlad42 - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
They were both cheap and stupid - what happened last winter has happened before. It was just deemed not worth it to winterize the infrastructure. Now, semiconductor manufacturers are looking to other states because up time is too important to chance.This is why most companies are looking at states like Ohio and New York. The power is reliable, there is plenty of water, and there are no fires/hurricanes/major natural disasters.
Gc - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
How much power does a fab need?eia.gov ohio map shows two large powerplants to the east.
780-840MW Conesville plant (conventional steam COAL), with mines to the southeast.
540-678MW Dresden plant (Natural GAS)
also a battery facility
4 MW Sunbury facility
and even a solar array nearby
1.9MW Denison solar array
edzieba - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
"How much power does a fab need?"100 MW would not be uncommon.
IBM760XL - Friday, February 4, 2022 - link
The last of Conesville was decommissioned due to no longer being economically viable in 2019 and 2020, and was demolished in December. It's gone for good.Columbus voters approved a measure to transition to 100% renewable energy by default in 2020, and construction on those plants should be underway before long if it isn't already. Which means there should be plenty of excess capacity in the are for Intel as demand for the existing non-renewable plants decreases.
mode_13h - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
> The benefit of sticking to the west coast is no snow or> other weather related issues that may cause delays.
Until the heat dome of 2021, I'd have believed that about pacific northwest. Not any more. Weather is a potential issue *everywhere*. Heat waves, blizzards, hurricanes, tornados, flooding (like the "bomb cyclone" they had in Iowa)... you can't run or hide from it, any more.
Alistair - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
lol, relaxunderspec - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
"This is fine."IBM760XL - Friday, February 4, 2022 - link
I live about 20 miles from the site. Infrastructure keeps working in the winter in Ohio. We learned from our outage events in the mid-late 2000s, invested in the grid, and it's quite stable now. We just had a big freezing rain storm, and the power stayed on. In 2005, it might not have, but now it does.Texas just hoped it would never get cold because they're Texas and got burned when it did. We know it's going to get cold up here so we prepare for it. The last time it was 20 below zero Fahrenheit? The lights stayed on then, too, and so did the natural gas. You build the infrastructure to handle it because people would die if you didn't. Unless you're Texas, then you just pray that it never gets cold.
IBM760XL - Friday, February 4, 2022 - link
Ohio is also pretty great in terms of other weather factors. Essentially zero risk of flooding unless you build right by one of the main rivers. No wildfires. No hurricanes. No earthquakes. Plentiful water. Southwest Ohio has a few tornadoes, but Columbus is outside of Tornado Alley, and Intel's on the side that's farther yet from Tornado Alley.One large local company was looking for a site to build a new datacenter a decade or so ago, and initially wanted to build it somewhere other than Columbus to have geographic diversity. But what they found in the end was that the risk factors were so low, that there wasn't much point in building a long ways away. So they built their next data center in New Albany, exactly where Intel is building.
mode_13h - Sunday, February 6, 2022 - link
> Essentially zero risk of flooding unless you build right by one of the main rivers.Nowhere is completely safe from flooding. A couple years ago, some midwestern states were hit by a bomb cyclone that dumped a ton of rain on frozen ground that couldn't absorb it. The result was devastating.
> Columbus is outside of Tornado Alley
Lately, the hotspot for tornadoes seems to be shifting eastward. You see this especially in the south.
I'm not really disagreeing with you that Columbus is a good site. I'm just saying nowhere is 100% safe.
HardwareDufus - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
this is significant news for the rustbelt region.manufacturing has been leaving the US for decades. to have have this investment occur in Ohio and overseas or Arizona, California or NewYork's Tech Valley is a big deal.
good for the Columbus metro area.
HardwareDufus - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
i meant.. NOT overseas, or AZ, CA or NY TechValley....Gc - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
Perhaps the car/truck/robot supplychain in the michigan/ontario to tennesee 'rustbelt' is the primary intended customer. Even though they haven't historically used bleeding edge fabs.Hifihedgehog - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
With chip hungry EVs becoming more and more the norm, that might be changing though.TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Car manufacturing throughout much of the rustbelt is connected both by i-75 and the railroads, both of which Columbus has easy access to. The move to EVs is going to push the demand for chips sky high.There's also talk of "secure chips" for the US government, and the government has at least one defense contractor making equipment for them in Lima.
IBM760XL - Friday, February 4, 2022 - link
There's also a major defense supply center in Columbus (https://www.dla.mil/Land-and-Maritime/About/Locati... Intel would be conveniently located to it.Techie2 - Friday, January 21, 2022 - link
Unfortunately, taxpayers are funding Intel's efforts to monopolize the chip industry even more as the Biden admin spends other people's money like a drunk. It would seem that GloFo in Malta NY should have gotten federal funding to expand their production as AMD is certainly hamstrung in it's ability to expand it's sales with leading chip designs due to TMSC's capacity limitations.michael2k - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
I think the intent is that Intel is going to be an open foundry. So instead of just two, TSMC and GloFlo, for AMD to pick from, there will be three.nandnandnand - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
If AMD wants to get back in the fab business, they are free to scrounge the couch cushions and pull out $20 billion to do it.Mike Bruzzone - Friday, January 28, 2022 - link
There was a Go Flo AMD JV initiative on the table into a couple years before Zen but AMD VCs said no. The offer was very similar to the Ti and IBM offers to Cyrix who also said no. mbwhatthe123 - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
monopolize the industry he says when TSMC owns the largest share of the market.Hifihedgehog - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Precisely. The fab industry is far from a monopoly with TSMC above and Samsung below. You could all them and Intel the big three of said industry.TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
A duopoly is hardly better then a monopoly, and intel's fabs are intel exclusive. For high end nodes, you have two choices: samsung and TSMC.Otritus - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
Intel’s fabs are not exclusive. Before IDM 2.0, no company took the opportunity to use Intel’s fabs because there wasn’t any benefit of using Intel over Global Foundries, Samsung, or TSMC. Since Intel’s new fabs are using a business model similar to other fab companies, it makes sense for the government to invest in Intel to increase domestic production.Mike Bruzzone - Monday, January 31, 2022 - link
whatthe123, TSMC monopolizes too in collusion with primarily Apple. mbflgt - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Unfortunately GF and it’s foreign backers gave up on leading edge fab process. Intel hasn’t preformed well but they were at least still in the game. GF would have needed Intel or foreign IP to accomplish what the government wanted. Well, and they didn’t pay off enough politicians.TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
You do know the biggest investor in TSMC's growth for years was taiwan, right? Intel is just playing by TSMC's rules.ABR - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
It's more likely we'll see AMD fabbing at Intel than GloFlo getting back into leading edge.Annnonymmous - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
How is Biden spending like a Drunk? Be honest.... I'm with you though, we need to balance the Federal Budget.mode_13h - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
> we need to balance the Federal Budget.No, but the long-term trend of the budget deficit should be bent downward to grow slower than inflation. That's not just about spending. It's also about revenue (i.e. taxation).
ChrisGX - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Intel could do well in the foundry business but I don't see that as fundamental to Intel's microprocessor business -- complementary yes, fundamental no.And, how are Intel's mainstream and specialised microprocessor businesses faring? Not so well, if IC Insights data is right. In 2021, a year in which growth rates for semiconductor companies (in the USA and elsewhere) were typically high -- above 20% for the sector as a whole -- Intel experienced a slight decline in revenues.
TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Really hared to make the "their foundries were not fundamental" when said foundries were critical to their processors cutting edge performance for the better part of 30 years, and allowed them to literally print money providing for the server and consumer markets. Even when on the uncompetitive 14nm+++ node they couldnt keep up with orders, and TSMC is utterly floored unable to keep up with demand resulting in a planetwide "chip shortage"And you're going to argue that intel foundries are not fundamental to their success? Really?
ChrisGX - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Intel's foundry operations are complimentary, but not fundamental, to its microprocessor business. I think that is a proposition supported by Intel's behaviour. If its foundry operations were truly fundamental to its microprocessor business then presumably shopping around for other foundries to fabricate Intel processors would be a no-no, but that is exactly what Intel has recently done signing contracts with TSMC for a significant number of 3nm parts.Perhaps, you are missing the point. Launching into a large commercial foundry business may work out well for Intel but it won't likely lift the performance of its microprocessor business. At the moment the weight of evidence suggests that Intel is finding it harder and harder to demonstrate any significant technological advantages for its own processors over rival products from AMD, Apple or a number of on the rise manufacturers building (infrastructure or consumer) SoCs based on licensed ARM tech. Intel's loss of leadership in microarchitecture is not a problem that will be resolved by raising the profile of its foundry business.
kwohlt - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
The point being missed is that TSMC has a tremendous amount of money they can invest in R&D because they make so many chips. With each node shrink, the cost continues to rise substantially to the point that Intel being the only "customer" of their own fab is not enough to support future R&D efforts.The semi-conductor industry shifts around. Intel no longer being the current leader in perf/watt does not signify some permanent shift from which they'll never recover. I see them already signing on Amazon and Qualcomm as customers of their GAA process, expecting to beat TSMC to market with this design. I see them being the first fab to acquire High-NA EUV machines from ASML. I see TSMC having delays with their N3 process. I see Intel building a massive, expensive fab in Ohio. The only conclusion that comes to my mind is that there will be a highly competitive fab industry by 2025.
x86 will continue to be around for a long time - and bringing up ARM doesn't seem to be the "got ya" you think it is. x86 doesn't have to break into the smart phone market if one of the largest ARM designers (Qualcomm) chooses to manufacture at Intel Foundries.
ChrisGX - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
Not having its own foundry facilities didn't stop AMD experiencing year on year annual growth in revenues of 65% in 2021 or similar rapid growth by MediaTek (60%), Nvidia (57%) or Qualcomm (51%) in the same period. Having its own foundry facilities didn't stop Intel suffering a decline in revenues of 1% during a year in which the semiconductor sector as a whole grew by 23%.Now, obviously, in-house foundry operations aren't fundamental to fast growing chip manufacturers like AMD, MediaTek, Nvidia or Qualcomm because, as a matter of fact, fabless chip manufacturers like those just mentioned are very successfully making their way in the world entirely free of such operations. It is easy to insist that Intel's foundry operations are somehow essential or fundamental to Intel as a microprocessor manufacturer but the evidence of the great success of fast growing fabless semiconductor designers/manufacturers/vendors belies that lazy line of thinking. Intel, like other chip manufacturers before it could easily spin off its foundry operations without Intel's chip business losing a beat. Given the scale of Intel's chip business, though, it has reason enough to retain its foundry operations. The integrated device manufacturing model can support product optimization, improve economics, and ensure supply resilience. But, the pure play foundry services model also has its attractions. TSMC, as you point out, has a tremendous amount of money that it can invest in R&D and given the nature of TSMC's business it constantly intensifies investments to improve the state of the art of silicon fabrication and to offer to its foundry partners (at a price) new technological options for 3D silicon stacking and advanced packaging. That, of course, is pretty much what fabless chip manufacturers want from a contract manufacturer.
The way the semiconductor industry has evolved has meant that chip design and chip fabrication are being pursued more and more as discrete activities. Would AMD, MediaTek, Nvidia or Qualcomm benefit from some integrated device manufacturing capability that they currently lack? Not obviously. Those companies are fast growing chip designers/suppliers whereas Intel with its IDM capability is stagnant.
I am not sure what to make of Pat Gelsinger's promotion of IDM 2.0 (it just sounds like cheerleading to me) and it isn't apparent to me why this would be the right fit for fabless semiconductor manufacturers. I suspect that Intel is just generating a noisy narrative that serves it purposes in the current situation. But, perhaps there is a simpler account for Intel's recent manoeuvring. It is evident that global foundry capacity needs to grow a lot and Intel arguably just wants to get a piece of that pie or, perhaps, needs a piece of that pie given the moribund condition of its chip business. Also, given the current nervousness about national/local manufacturing and the favourable mood in government circles (in the US and elsewhere) towards extending aid to corporations in order to bolster key national industries, Intel may be just opportunistically raising its hand in the hope to become a recipient of a hefty share of that governmental largesse.
https://www.icinsights.com/data/articles/documents...
https://publicseminar.org/essays/semiconductor-chi...
Mike Bruzzone - Tuesday, January 25, 2022 - link
Intel SF10 currently has a 25 cents on the dollar cost advantage over AMD and Nvidia when applying the foundry mark up, otherwise Intel and TSMC production costs are similar. Intel strategy is to trail on the downward sloping cost curve of every last node while AMD and Nvidia get hit with the factor cost increase on every next node; note the classic Intel watcher, learner, fast follower. AMD has to maintain at least 1.5 nodes ahead of Intel on cost add of foundry mark up or AMD losses performance for area advantage that has already occurred for V5x 7 nm v AL SF10/7. Subsequently Rembrandt 6 and Genoa 5 has been shipping since q3 2021. Sapphire Rapids is also shipping. Genoa and SR in risk volumes to hyperscale / cloud (HPC) because no one waits at the leading edge. mbwhatthe123 - Wednesday, January 26, 2022 - link
you're comparing growth of companies like AMD who had almost no market 5 years ago, to the growth of intel who has been twiddling their thumbs with greater than 90% x86 market ownership until recently. AMD benefits both from the market's growth and intel's loss of performance dominance, whereas intel is limited by its ability to supply chips and has only recently put in TSMC orders for chips that will go into their CPUs.If anything, the fact that AMD has a clearly dominant design for the past 2~3 years yet is still severely supply constrained and gradually regaining marketshare shows you just how much of a gap there is in volume between the two companies. Hardly comparable at all.
Mike Bruzzone - Wednesday, January 26, 2022 - link
whatthe123, yes AMD is supply constrained. AMD broke 100 M units this year for the first time ever approximately 111,954,324 units I'll be able to confirm that when q4 10Q comes out. All up AMD has produced 326,491,986 Zen based components since Summit introduction in February 2017. Intel capacity before fab initiatives is 400 M units annual + 100 M outsourced to foundries. I can also confirm AMD has to keep 1.5 nodes ahead to maintain its area advantage on large cache applications performance strategy and 1) process is saturating and 2) nodes will stack as in like a train car crash and 3) Intel has placed that TSMC 3 nm road block. mb, former Cyrix, NexGen, AMD, ARM, IDT Centaurmode_13h - Thursday, January 27, 2022 - link
> AMD has to keep 1.5 nodes ahead to maintain its area advantage> on large cache applications performance strategy
Did it occur to you that as AMD grows, it has more resources to invest in design & other new tech? So, maybe that lead on design that Intel seems to have is now dropping to 1 node, and maybe it'll drop to 0.5 nodes by the time Zen 5 hits.
Mike Bruzzone - Thursday, January 27, 2022 - link
mode_13th, lithography process and lithography process 'advantage' is stacking from the back like a freight train that just ran into a physical wall; everyone catches up when lithography reaches saturation at infinity dependent then on what is the next transistor and what is the next bit cell.Specific to the jump gate of advanced packaging and interconnect and in memory compute and CXL etc., I entirely agree that system in package presents new performance subsystem and overall system performance opportunities.
Zen 5? AMD is currently scrambling to get Zen 4 to fit into the Intel + Microsoft (tied) sandbox on a reconfigured x86 'platform standard' that is Win 11 thread directed application optimizations. Certainly, and currently V5x on Win 10 is 'the more x86 standard platform' than Alder on Windows 11?
Q "Did it occur to you that as AMD grows, it has more resources to invest in design & other new tech?"
A; Think about what happens, what product(s) functionality you get, when you drop an FPGA (combine) on top of a GPU array; matrix and spatial. Among the most basic is area microcontrollers for tensor like linear algebra and/or like what RT does today with MCUs managing their areas of a bit map or what Volta tensor cores can do to optimize server data processing operations I'd need to read up on the various application uses. At the top of the stack when you combine and FPGA with a GPU you get a switch; now think Broadcom.
Yes, it really is quite expansive, I agree entirely. mb
ChrisGX - Thursday, January 27, 2022 - link
Intel had no growth in revenues in a year that the semiconductor sector as a whole grew by 23% globally. That is an awful result whatever way you cut it. Also, fast risers do give a good picture of what is happening in the sector - they take a significant percentage of growing revenues in semiconductors.Yes, I did make comparisons, as you say, but I have been very clear in stating that the intent of my comments was to point out how moribund Intel processor design has become. The comparisons were elementary and mostly served an argumentative intent -- if foundries play this magical role in governing the quality of microprocessors how is it that AMD has become dominant in design (and has reaped rewards in terms of growth)? I was attempting to show to Intel fans with an Intel can do no wrong attitude that their outlook was self-contradictory. It hasn't been plain sailing at all over at Intel. They have needed to rid themselves of dead wood and a bunch of new techical hires were needed to start putting Intel on a steady course and ultimately a new management team had to be imported to start extricating the company from the mess created by the earlier thumb twiddlers. Also, I am not setting out rules for the organisation of semiconductor companies, I am calling out a company by the name of Intel that has been underperforming for years due to technical lethargy and a preoccupation with dubious market practices and inattention to user needs and that as a consequence of those failures has opened the way for an onslaught by its chip rivals on markets that are now up for grabs. Is anyone going to seriously dispute this sorry story? So, in my account Intel created the problem and is the problem although it has belatedly acted to start fixing the problem.
Where do the fabs stand in all of this? They are nothing more than a side issue in the story I set out -- Intel's fabs (and pure play fabs, too) are obviously a big deal but the low ebb of Intel as a chip supplier has much more to do with troubles it has had in designing chips that meet the needs of end users and very little to do with the performance of Intel's fabs per se. Intel lost dominance in chip design because poor management failed to properly support chip design and engineering -- the core of what Intel is. Now, just as Intel's foundries didn't figure in the mess Intel got itself into with weakening demand for the chips it was producing nor will its foundries save Intel as a chip design and engineering business from further troubles if it fails in its objective to build the right kind of chip design teams that can manage to outdo its rivals.
Indeed, AMD is supply constrained -- it would be doing even better if it weren't, but that tells us almost nothing about when an why a chip supplier might think of getting into the chip fabrication game. AMD has been through these things before and I leave to them how they want to proceed.
I have one question on these proposed fabs. In view of the heavy public commitments that will underwrite these facilities why is it Intel rather than any number of other semiconductor companies that is getting the attention of State governments and the US Federal government? Is Intel a particularly deserving beneficiary of their support? Or to put the point more forcefully, does putting the semiconductor sector in the USA on a sounder footing necessarily involve dusting off a player with deeply entrenched self-interests like Intel (with the support of public funds) to take the lead in that effort?
Mike Bruzzone - Thursday, January 27, 2022 - link
Intel gets no federal funding until Intel Inside price fix theft associated General Services Administration processor in box and processor in computer procurement overcharge theft is returned to the federal government. Thereafter at the public level, State Citizens. See what Ohio is up to, States can offer whatever investment incentives they want and then as the Ohio State AG collects for State Citizens on the consumer market Intel Inside price fix theft the State investment in Intel subsidies becomes a push. mbSilver5urfer - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
Wrong.Intel bread and butter was Fabs and x86 ISA. Intel was leading in the technology on all fronts, be it FinFet, 22nm first, 14nm and high K. They ruined themselves, who ? Shareholders.
Intel sabotaged AMD by that Intel Israel MOAP program which forced Dell, Lenovo, Supermicro, HP server OEMs to stop AMD and killed their own competition and got away, which caused AMD to spin off all their fabs which had IBM technology on top. Then they kept on re-iterating the Core series design from SKL to KBL era with same quad core. Meanwhile the shareholder pigs left Intel to rot and moved their base of love to Apple. Then Apple poured billions into TSMC and Chinese / Taiwanese manufacturing. Which caused TMSC exponential growth.
Also Intel wasted all money on 5G tech, Mobile Eye, and McAfee etc Mergers because they did not have competition. Ultimately the company stagnated, but due to the x86 world they stayed afloat and profits because greed. With Apple's shareholder influence they got 5G sold to Apple for just $1bn. Horrible. Scum Apple gotaway for cheap while they wanted to nuke Qcomm out by Broadcom.
Anyways coming back to Intel, they had even SSD NAND also top rank, Intel SLC and MLC was top notch at that time Samsung barely even started with 840 series. Now look where Intel NAND is completely sold off to SKHynix and even the best technology R&D Optane is also Enterprise only.
Intel also had their CPUs coupled with Nodes, this is why SKL could never be even fabbed on 10nm if they wanted, the only backport they did was RKL and it was a huge disaster which killed LGA1200 prematurely, on purpose however because 10nm TigerLake BGA trash get more sales and margins than a DIY LGA socket. Plus it helps ADL charts.
Ultimately Intel is Lithography and x86 both do not exist separate. They failed on 10nm by 4 years which caused more money to TSMC and now Intel is going to TSMC for their diversified plan of chiplets and Xe GPUs. Utter shame how this company has fallen.
This helps Intel AND x86 to lead the world computing. Mobile OSes and ARM garbage are use and throw junk with very little backcompat and re-usability. PLUS this also helps Intel to keep some jobs in US rather than depending entirely on that damn Asian subcontinent be it IT oursourcing, Immigration and R&D of leading Semi industry. Plus Chinese insane rip off. Look how Apple helped them to flood the market with cheap trash clones of Apple devices choking out all the others in the market.
ChrisGX - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
>>This helps Intel AND x86 to lead the world computing.<<In a year in which semiconductor industries experienced 23% growth in revenues for the sector as a whole Intel declined 1%. That is a very poor result.
https://www.icinsights.com/data/articles/documents...
https://www.icinsights.com/data/articles/documents...
Silver5urfer - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
Mobile devices ship in far higher volumes than x86 parts PLUS Intel's node problem let AMD eat Intel's marketshare in Datacenter and DIY on top of that Intel Capex on these IDM made their growth stunted.What you want to say is one single argument - Kill the Fabs as they do not do anything. You already know how much volume Intel fabs have vs TSMC. Taiwanese corporation asked a huge chunk of money to allocate for Intel 3nm requirement. And we do not even know if it's x86 processors or the Xe GPU.
If Intel sheds all fabs who is going to buy them ? Andy Grove mentioned years ago that there will be only one Foundry left due to the nature of the Lithography getting expensive as time passes by, now we have only 3 left. In which there's only one Pure Play TSMC.
Plus Samsung makes DRAM, ICs, ARM and a TON more on top of their Fab plants in SK. Intel doesn't they even sold off the entire NAND and Optane Fab Utah one as well. Ofc Samsung will have a ton of growth. Very poor comparision of Apples vs Oranges only one pretext that Fabless grew Intel didn't ignoring entire market dynamics, companies that produce mobile junk vs DIY / Datacenter.
ChrisGX - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
>>What you want to say is...<<So, I have an agenda according to you. Well, I am not pushing the cart that you assert I am. I mention successful fabless companies because their success flies in the face of the naive outlook of someone like yourself who asserts and asserts Intel's way is best even as that behemoth wallows. There is nothing that fab ownership can do to save an underperforming silicon design and engineering operation from itself. What I contend is that Intel is an underperforming silicon design and engineering operation.
Intel may benefit greatly from this renewed emphasis on foundry services. But, Intel's rivals in the chip game won't be worried about that because it is Intel's failure to get silicon design and engineering right (after poor management over many years that has had a devastating effect on Intel as a technology company) that has given them the opportunity to score major wins as Intel wallows.
Looking forward, beyond Raptor Lake, say, maybe the intensified engineering efforts that have followed the change of management at Intel will start to pay dividends. We shall see.
Mike Bruzzone - Tuesday, January 25, 2022 - link
If Intel shed its fabs Intel would go bankrupt on their existing cost structure despite the fact Intel has been re-engineering its cost structure (replacing) on diversification attempts and tries for the last 20 years. Intel may finally be getting it's cost structure optimized on diversification and reconfiguring from producing for supply to financially monopolize channels to producing for demand that cuts a lot of nonsense costs from the bottom line. mbflgt - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Speculation, but this probably has less to do with water supply, electricity, or winter conditions. It’s politicians trying to keep votes for a bunch of rust belt union workers who are about to lose in the EV transition.Threska - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Considering how long all this takes, most already would have lost before plans come to conclusion. Plus, electronics fabrication is different than most rust belt industry, taking a good while to retrain.mode_13h - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
That's not really how politics works. The big political donors for in-state offices are mostly in the business community. Construction firms, real estate holders, and other vested interests were likely pushing for this, and will reward the politicians who got it done with more political donations.Unions are also probably a bit more far-sighted than their individual members. If Ohio isn't a "right-to-work" state, then unions also could've helped push this through.
Hifihedgehog - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Uh, as someone who lives in the rust belt, what a tone deaf comment. GM and Ford have significant rollouts planned with EVs over the next decade. I know of many new hires from my alma mater who were hired just a couple years ago and who were picked specifically for EV R&D work.Hifihedgehog - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
The traditional assembly line workers in the rust belt are in fact getting transitioned to EV assembly and that will be progressing over the next decade. I have close friends that I interact with often and they have a lot of good things in store, so again you are totally ignorant and underinformed.flgt - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
Ha, as someone who grew up in Ohio, I'm always amazed how people from Ohio can drive around all the abandoned factories in the state and still think the auto manufacturers will save them. You think every person who's shoving sheet metal into stamping machines is going to go to Ohio State and design batteries and electric motors. EV will drive a complete re-tooling of the factories which will be mostly automated. Plus it will provide a window for new companies to take market share from the Big 3. You assume they all will survive. A lot of those jobs are going to robots. If not, there will be continual pressure to relocate jobs to southern states or Mexico. In short, acceleration of what's happening for decades. Time to take your head out of the sand.TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Did you just assume that the EVs would appear from thin air, or all be made in california or something dumb like that?Those EVs are going to be made in the same factories making gas cars now, and they'll need chips. And now intel is making a huge plant tapped right into the transportation network that feeds those factories.
jjjag - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Wow now all of a sudden Anand readers are manufacturing experts. As of now, NONE of the below comments have a clue, and are largely making things up. The entire country has a plentiful "water supply". You think these fabs use tap water? Water is a closed system in these.Ohio got the fabs because they gave Intel better tax breaks. Did you people even listen or watch the press release yesterday? The Gov mentioned like 10 times that they had to pass legislation to allow them to give tax breaks to win the deal.
Not saying that's bad -- competition amongst the states is necessary. Intel will not even consider a bid from Texas because of their politics, not while Pat is CEO.
Dan Stiegen - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
"Intel will not even consider a bid from Texas because of their politics, not while Pat is CEO."Nor, probably, from Arizona, where the alt-right lunatics in their desert doublewides have taken over the state legislature. The more intelligent and educated districts and county have been gerrymandered into impotence. Hence the idiocies of the past year, like the clown show "audit".
More insanity to come when they pass Az GOP House Bill 2720 making it trivial for themselves to give all Az electors to their candidate. No reason needed; no oversight, consultation, or recourse. No need to even be in session - a 5-min Zoom call will simply turn the state red. That bill is promoted for "election integrity".
Why build in a "state" headed for such political catastrophes?
TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
I suppose it'd be better if we just handed out mail in ballots with no checks in place like we did in 2020 right? Because there was no complaining from democrats when THAT happened. Those poor "educated" districts getting railroaded by idiots, because no republican ever lives outside of a trailer park and despite being educated you cant outsmart a field mouse.Leftist lunatics and their blinding hypocracy, honestly. Just stick to ruining california instead of trying to screw the rest of the country thanks. If you want to whine about "audits" maybe address you spent 4 YEARS screaming about "MUH RUSSIA" and auditing the 2016 election only to come up utterly empty handed.
mode_13h - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
> I suppose it'd be better if we just handed out mail in ballots> with no checks in place like we did in 2020
Doesn't know how voting-by-mail *actually* works. The envelopes have serial numbers, so they can't be forged. This also tells them who is voting, so you can't vote both by mail and in-person.
> spent 4 YEARS screaming about "MUH RUSSIA" ... only to come up utterly empty handed.
Mueller found numerous counts of obstruction of justice. Normally, people only obstruct an investigation to hide their guilt.
Dan Stiegen - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Nobody of any significance questioned the 2016 *count* nor demanded endless "forensic" audits of every county in the nation. Russian meddling in the *campaign* was proven. Two different things. And as noted, mail-in ballots have many checks in place (you are totally uninformed) and are scrupulously handled; and btw 90% of Arizonans have been using them for ~40 years. Not a problem until Trump lost.But that and your other whatabouts aren't the point, which is that Az is in the hands of a cabal of state legislators cynically pandering to 2020 election lies and to the alt-right agenda in general, including QAnon. They are 24/7 fostering hate against the Dems and the few remaining Republicans who dare to stand in their way. The rage levels on those forums are incredible. Any sensible corporation will think 50 times before investing billions here. Another price we Arizonans must pay for helping to vote Trump out.
mode_13h - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
> Another price we Arizonans must payI'm sorry to hear that, but thanks for sharing.
IBM760XL - Friday, February 4, 2022 - link
He's still being investigated and may yet wind up locked up. Even if it is in a New York prison instead of, or prior to, a federal one.Silver5urfer - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
What a joke of a comment which is the modern progressive nonsense. If that's the case you know what, the worst is ? Cultural Marxism ruining America, it killed off Oregon, California to a halt. These type should go to Ars Technica not AT and lay off the Catastrophic Crack nonsense.Putting every single fab in AZ or TX is not good, diversifying the factories and manuf plants is what America needs choking a single state out of this whole BS muh Silicon Valley crap ruined that state permanently. So Intel chose this due to whatever tax benefits they got from OH.
ChrisGX - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
That's the way, just spew this rubbish incessantly without ever constraining your perverse opinions with supporting evidence -- California remains the biggest contributor to US GDP.https://www.statista.com/chart/9358/us-gdp-by-stat...
ChrisGX - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
More complete data on GDP by State, GDP per capita and annual rate of growth of GDP by State can be found at the following link:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and...
Oxford Guy - Tuesday, January 25, 2022 - link
'Cultural Marxism ruining America, it killed off Oregon'I looked at average home prices in western Oregon. Even awful-looking towns have prices vastly higher than the prices in Indiana.
Apparently this 'Marxism' is giving people more money there, somehow.
TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
So they wont invest in texas, but WILL in ohio, another rebuplican run state?10/10 genius comment.
mode_13h - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Ohio isn't nearly as red.IBM760XL - Friday, February 4, 2022 - link
Ohio's GOP is pretty tame by national standards. Our previous governor, John Kasich, ran against Trump in the 2016 primaries, beat him in Ohio, and loathed Trump so much that he skipped the 2016 convention, despite it being in his own state while he was acting governor. In part due to his Never Trump stance, a lot of Ohio Republicans, especially in purple and blue counties, are much more moderate than the national party.Even now, Ohio's most prominent statewide-elected Republicans - Governor DeWine and Senator Portman - are pretty moderate, or at least traditional (pre-Trump) conservative. Portman was key in passing the infrastructure bill, actively promoting it alongside Biden. DeWine sided with Democrats and vetoed legislation from his own party on coronavirus measures in 2020. They're both known for valuing competence over ideology.
They're also both aware that Ohioans will elect Democrats if they perceive them to be more competent. Ohio's other Senator, Sherrod Brown, is a Democrat and won re-election in 2018, and Democrats flipped a seat on Ohio's Supreme Court in 2020, cutting the GOP advantage to 4-3. A few weeks ago, the Supreme Court ruled against its own majority party on redistricting maps. It's not all about ideology here. You have to be competent, too.
Sure, at the more local level we occasionally get clowns like Jim Jordan. But he's elected from a heavily red constituency. State-wide, there's nothing comparison to having Greg Abbott as governor.
aperson2437 - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Hopefully, Intel will send in a huge army of construction crews and equipment so they can get this new Ohio Fab Complex up and running at warp speed. Maybe someone on Youtube can do drone videos of the construction of it like they do for Tesla's Gigafactory in Austin, TX.I can't wait to get my hands on a mind boggling 18A Intel chip for my PC. I suspect Apple, Qualcomm and all the other chip designers will give Intel a big chunk of their business if they can get this Ohio fab up and running quickly and they have excellent, high quality yields and so forth. It will surely make the Columbus, Ohio area one of the major high technology hubs in the whole world.
TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, January 22, 2022 - link
Local construction companies are pushing some juicy contracts to attract workers. That industry is in an insane boom between this and the housing buildup.cowymtber - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
How is Intel going to pay for these fabs, when EPYC takes over 50% market share?mode_13h - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
Eh, between TSMC's supply constraints and the industry-wide shift towards ARM, I don't really see that happening.Anyway, let's say AMD + ARM manage to put Xeon on a steady downward trajectory. Intel's new foundry business can always pivot to making ARM-based CPUs. Or RISC-V, or whatever.
And don't forget, some of them could even be designed by Intel! Intel isn't going to stay x86 forever. Just like how they replaced Xeon Phi with non-x86 HPC processors, they will shift their server CPU offerings away from x86, if the market demands it.
Valantar - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
It is honestly so depressing to see architectural drawings for a high-tech, massive budget facility like this planned for near-future construction and have it include _zero_ renewable energy generation. Open-plan car parks are not only an ecological disaster and a massive waste of land, but if strictly necessary the very least they could do would be to roof them over with solar panels. The same goes for the fab buildings - there is zero reason for those roofs not to be covered in solar panels. All that open area in flat terrain should also be excellent for wind turbines (obviously built so as not to cause vibrations that might affect production). Though tbh given the budget of something like this, splurging on a multi-story parking garage (still covered with solar panels, including side walls) and leaving the unused land as meadows (promoting biodiversity in what is likely mostly monocultural quasi-desert) would be _by far_ the preferred solution, and a minor added cost overall.mode_13h - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
I think the impact of the solar panels would be negligible compared to the plant's energy demands, but it wouldn't hurt. The point about maintaining some wild land or parks around the complex is a good idea.Valantar - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
You're missing the point a bit: I'm not asking for net zero energy, I'm asking them to make a damn effort. Net zero energy for any major industrial installation from renewable in its own area is essentially impossible. That doesn't alleviate them from the responsibility of doing what they can. Ideally, the permits to build this would come with a requirement to fund the building of significant renewable energy sources in the same area. But barring that, anyone occupying a significant plot of land like this for industrial purposes still has a responsibility to care for it and its surroundings both in terms of energy generation, pollution, biodiversity, noise and light pollution, and many other factors.mode_13h - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
Yeah, I get that. Hopefully, Intel will add solar panels as a mere matter of economics.ABR - Monday, January 24, 2022 - link
Agreed. Building for the future like they're in the 1990's.Eskimonster - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
Since now every cpu can "do the job" i wish they would focus more on enviroment when producing chips.ChrisGX - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
>>The scope and pace of Intel’s expansion in Ohio, however, will depend heavily on funding from the CHIPS Act<<Shock, horror, Intel has its snout in the trough.
imaheadcase - Sunday, January 23, 2022 - link
Ohio must of offered some really nice incentives..because Ohio.Mike Bruzzone - Tuesday, January 25, 2022 - link
There is no Chip Act funding for Intel in relation the potential of a federal theft reverse false claim."Meanwhile the CHIPS for America Act and its 53 billion in incentives will also be a. Intel for its part isn’t playing coy about its interest in the CHIPS money, explicitly stating that “The scope and pace of Intel’s expansion in Ohio, however, will depend heavily on funding from the CHIPS Act”.
I thought CEO Gelsinger ordered the Intel PR Department mum on this because Intel is rich and does not need Chip Act funds and INTC board does not want the U.S. federal government snooping around in Intel's business?
There are no federal Chip Act funds available to Intel until Intel Inside price fix recovery sought by the federal government and 27 States AG including Ohio is paid. The U.S. government does not hand out money to corporations who thieved from U.S. government and have not paid back the theft Congress would immediately file suit.
States and Fed have an offer on the table; $19,805,500,000 worldwide consumer, $350,000,000 United States federal for Title 48 processor in box and processor in computer chassis Intel Inside 'price fix overcharges plus $500,000,000 in administrative reimbursement cost offset = $19,805,500,000. States however are free to negotiate their own incentives with Intel we reside in a federal republic of 50 States and 4 territories including certain of these entities holding commonwealth rights.
In the Intel Inside system of tied charge backs; a two-part system of regulating trigger for defining what is (how much is) the compensating 'kick back' match, $19.805 billion represents 46% of Intel Inside 'kick back' match for channel registered metering report to intel for payment on processor and processor in computer end buyer sales notice; discharge from the supply chain essentially. It's called a brand fee reward. EUCC in 37.990 calls it "avoidable cost charge", FTC in Docket 9341 says "raising price with no efficiency justification" and generally in United States domestic antitrust terminology is said a "nonsense" or 'extra economic' cost in price charge.
Intel Inside is not cooperative advertising, an Intel false certification and proof of the theft, but an inventory flow metering system commissioning end sales outlets with a brand fee reward on the end sale paid by end buyers on that Intel Inside cost buried into Intel processor price to the OEM.
Think about this for a moment on the grand scale. Intel 1st tier OEMS monopolize 100% of Intel production volume and 100% of Intel Inside attach that is $8.32 per processor over 25 years and when those OEMs sell off whatever amount of that 100% procurement volume they do not want on real time demand or down bin SKUs, they sell it to the secondary tier without the rebate. First tier OEMs keep the total amount of Intel Inside. Thereafter these artificially weighted pools of Intel Inside funds tie first tier OEMS to their own OEM and web direct sales, media web sales, affiliate and retail sales outlets. All sales outlets compete for the majority of Intel Inside pools, none leave Intel Inside on the table. Before Zen pull through this how AMD up until 2017, Cyrix and IDT Centaur and VIA way back when were restrained and limited. Intel always sells through first and all others sell through last because Intel Inside s never left on the table by sales channels.
Noteworthy Intel Inside was discontinued by Intel entering fiscal 2018 one among the BK clean up initiatives.
Including the OEM regulating contribution taken by Intel and cost to OEMs in their processor procurement price; recall it's a two-part value system, $18.9 billion = 22% of the entire Intel Inside consumer price fix robbery across 5.539,406,562 total processors thought low on total CPUs manufactured subject Intel production laundering thefts by employees engaged in associate inter nation channel cartels. Think Intel employees who get an Intel pay check but really work for and are kept employed in Intel by their bosses at OEMs and in sales channels including the media.
I can see why Intel and Ohio would make a good match although Ohio has no existing semiconductor manufacturing infrastructure there.
Ohio certainly could use the jobs I've been there and its a manufacturing region for auto, aircraft and aircraft maintenance, assembly, machinists and Ohioans have a manufacturing heritage. My mother’s father’s side were in the Ohio valley early in that frontier migrating to California as rail road workers in the 1880s.
I wish Intel and Ohio well in their endeavors but there is no federal Chip Act funds for intel until Intel pays back Intel Inside otherwise that act results in a reverse false claim and Congress would immediately file suit.
https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/5030701-mike-br...
https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/5030701-mike-br...
Mike Bruzzone
FTC Docket 9341 auditor monitor and 9288 and 931 discovery aid since May 1998
Retained by Congress
Contract agent of the United States Department of Justice'
former Cyrix, ARM, NexGen, AMD employee, Samsung Alpha, intel, IDT Centaur consultant
Oxford Guy - Thursday, January 27, 2022 - link
'Meanwhile the CHIPS for America Act and its 53 billion in incentives will also be a.'A what?
A grail?
Mike Bruzzone - Friday, January 28, 2022 - link
Oxford Guy, what do you mean a grail. More definition please? mbQuestor - Sunday, February 6, 2022 - link
Mixed feelings about this. From customer friendliness, morality and ethics perspectives, Intel is an absolute garbage company. It's far worse than most of companies, except perhaps Pfizer. This comment has nothing to do with current world narratives, the company existed before and was rotten to the core.Anyway, on the other hand, I always want competition in the market, technological advancement to keep pace and jobs. I have family at ground zero where the fab will be built. Job opportunities?
Hrel - Friday, February 18, 2022 - link
If chip prices don't go down until 2025, realistically 2026... that's really gonna suck.A full power high memory throughput 1080p gpu should not cost more than $200, and should drop under 150 pretty quickly.
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